Transcript edited by Ashten Vassar-Cain with support from the DAC team.
BRENDA BRUEGGEMANN: Alright. Thank you so much for joining us today.
HOLLY FITCH: Oh, pleasure!
BRENDA BRUEGGEMANN: And so what we’re doing here, I’ll tell you a little bit, I’m Brenda Brueggemann. I’ve not ever met you before, but I’m loving some of the people that I’m meeting across the college through this accessibility project. So I started the idea for the blog. I was the editor of Disability Studies Quarterly, which is the main, the Field’s Journal of Record, and the oldest journal in the field since 1982. It’s published by Ohio State University libraries, and I actually brought it to Ohio State. Before I came here to UConn, I was at Ohio State for 21 years. And love the journal, it has grown expanded greatly. But it’s a it’s an academic journal, it’s a peer reviewed journal. And in the field of disability studies there’s a lot of kind of tension over that, because a whole lot of people are activists and community work. And there’s not really any space for them. So I thought about starting this kind of blog as a companion or something to like the more academic journal. And so that’s what we’re doing here. We’re calling it the Disability & Access Collective blog. CLAS gave me some funds to start it, and we’re intending to keep a kind of UConn focus for the first year or two, and then grow it out. So we’re looking, we attend certain events that seem to have some kind of disability or health, or medical humanities angle. Obviously interviewing you guys, and we write some of our own stuff. The blog just opened up. It’s soft launched, so it’s now you can get to it. We opened it up on Thursday. But we won’t do the full launch– the hard launch with the full PR campaign until the UConn student design team is designing a logo for us. And they’ve already done a preliminary design of it we’ll meet with them soon, and then we’ll blast it all around. We’re hoping to have blog on party– an open house for it in the fall. But the first material we already have material up from your colleagues Kimberly Bergendahl and Erin Scanlon. Those are already posted up! So thats what we’re doing. I’m gonna ask Hannah to introduce herself.
HANNAH DANG: Hello, everybody! My name’s Hannah. I’m a freshman at UConn. I’m an English major, currently. I’m incredibly –It’s really nice to meet you. I’m incredibly lucky to get to work on this blog. Honestly, I think it’s a great thing we’re doing, our battle against stigma, bringing awareness to Disability Studies overall. And I’m really excited for this interview. It’s really nice to meet you.
HOLLY FITCH: Yeah!
BRENDA BRUEGGEMANN: How about Madison?
MADISON BIGELOW: Hi! I’m Madison! I’m a junior. I’m an English major. I have a sociology minor. I was the one who emailed you, so to put a face to a name. But yeah, I’m really excited to be here and thank you so much for just taking this time to sit and talk with us. Our past few interviews with the other accessibility fellows have been really great, so I’m super excited to get to talk to you as well.
HOLLY FITCH: Yeah!
BRENDA BRUEGGEMANN: And Ashten.
ASHTEN VASSAR-CAIN: Hi! I’m Ashten. I am a junior. I’m a Human Rights and Psych Major, I actually had you in Physio Psych last semester? Yea it was last semester. So I –I’m really interested in the field of Disability Studies and I think it’s really cool everyone we have here on the team
HOLLY FITCH: Great, awesome.
ASHTEN VASSAR-CAIN: And yeah, I’m super thankful that you’re here with us today!
BRENDA BRUEGGEMANN: And Ally. Have you caught your breath? Could you introduce yourself?
ALLY CARBUTTI: Little bit. Hi! I’m Ally. I’m a junior, but I’m technically a senior by credit. And I’m an English major with a minor in communications, and I’m very interested in Disability Studies. I’ve been doing a lot of work with Brenda for about a year and a half now on different projects. Really excited to have you here today.
BRENDA BRUEGGEMANN: Great, and we’re missing one person, Elisa, who’s the graduating senior and university scholar I’ve been working with for three and a half years. She just arrived in Turkey not too long ago, she just texted me. She was going to try to come, but she’s completely worn down after 20 hours of flight, and it’s like 2 AM in the morning.
HOLLY FITCH: Oh yeah.
BRENDA BRUEGGEMANN: So she took a pass.
HOLLY FITCH: That’s tough with the time difference.
BRENDA BRUEGGEMANN: Didn’t wanna be video taped at 2 AM in the morning.
HOLLY FITCH: I do not blame her.
BRENDA BRUEGGEMANN: So that’s us, and the blog. And so we’ll ask you just to kind of start. Could you just give us a short– kind of a short walkthrough of what your Accessibility Fellowship Project is about?
HOLLY FITCH: Sure, sure. Maybe I’ll just start with a little bit of background about myself. I’m a professor in the Behavioral Neuroscience division in Psychological Sciences. And my long-term interest has been studying developmental disabilities and in particular I started out with a focus on specific language impairment and language related problems.
And I’ve expanded my work since then to cover a variety of types of developmental cognitive disabilities. So we’ve done some work with autism models, and other types of models. So the work I do is considered basic, like bench lab research, meaning we use animal models. And a big focus has been to look at genes that have been implicated as potentially risk factors or potentially causal factors in some developmental disabilities.
And the other line of my research models what happens with the kinds of brain injuries that we see in preterm or infants that are born with birth trauma, both of which can relate to very early brain damage. And we see a huge elevation in the prevalence of learning disability, and cognitive disability amongst these infants as they get older. So that’s that’s really been my academic interest.
At the personal level I’m a mom of 4 grown children and one –My youngest daughter– She’s clinically deaf without her hearing aids. She has bilateral hearing aids that she received when she was about 4 years old. And she has. It’s a peripheral issue with her middle ear bones. And so I’ve always had sort of a special interest in accessibility for individuals with hearing barriers.
And so, as a professor, I’ve been teaching now for about 17 years, and as a teacher of a large the, you know, large enrollment, Physiological Psychology class, the one that Ashten participated in, I’ve had a number of students who have been accommodated through the CSD (Center for Students with Disabilities) and that number has been increasing. And in addition, I was fortunate to be able to work as a graduate instructor with one of the early graduate enrollees, who was who was Deaf, and this was back before we had our Center for Interpreting which Marie Coppola, played a big role in, you know, getting that established. So this was at a time when she was fighting very, very hard to get interpreters for our student. And so I worked a lot with Audrey Silva at that time, and another interpreter, whose name I can’t remember, to basically to deliver, you know, content accessible to our student. And I just found that really interesting. And one of the things that we did. I actually taught the interpreters. I pre-taught them the class, so that they would have, so that they would have the terminology, and basically a familiarity with the concepts that I was talking about.
One of the issues is that there’s not always signs available for some of the terms in these classes, and so it requires them to finger spell, which, with big words and lots of them, can get quite tiring, and so by pre-teaching it would allow them to create some basic signs that they would share with the student. And in exchange they provided ASL lessons for me and my daughter Maddie, the one with hearing impairment. And so that’s sort of a background on kind of where my academic and my personal interests lie.
And then, more recently, when my younger daughter Maddie, was at college, not here at UConn but at Duke, she had a really unfortunate incident where– she turns her hearing aids off when she’s taking an exam to avoid distraction, and the instructor had made a clarification about one of the questions mid exam. Which she did not hear. And she realized that she answered the the question wrong because she didn’t understand, she didn’t have the information he provided. And she went to him afterwards and she explained what happened. And he said, “Well, basically, that’s too bad. Maybe you shouldn’t turn your hearing aids off next time.” And of course, her father and I were like, you know, you need to go to the office for CSD. This is unacceptable, you know there’s a law called the American with Disabilities Act. But she just, she’s the type of girl who didn’t want to cause a fuss, and she’s like, “I’ll just do better on the next test.” And so, so that kind of an experience having it sort of hit home personally made me realize that this issue continues to be a problem.
And so when I saw the advertisement for the Faculty Fellows Program, what I wanted to do was get involved in it from the perspective of “How can we better educate our faculty about how to provide services for individuals with with hearing barriers?” and to get a better idea of sort of the resources that we have, how they fit together. And so I spent a lot of time talking to, you know, people who are involved in this space. I spoke with Diane Lillo-Martin who’s involved in the ASL educational program. I spoke with Marie Coppola, who was instrumental in getting the interpreter center set up. I spoke with Audrey Silva and I talked to some of my faculty colleagues about, you know. “How well do you understand how this process works? When you get a letter from the CSD that tells you someone has live captioning or interpreting services do you understand how that works? Do you understand where this portal is? Do you understand why it’s important to upload your materials ahead of time?” And I found that there’s not a good understanding. And not only that, but there’s a lot of faculty I would go so far as to say resentment against the what’s perceived as a burden of providing accommodation for variety of reasons.
One part of it is that the communication from the CSD, for legal reasons, and as the result of a lawsuit, has very legalese language in it. And so when a professor gets a letter, it basically says “You’re required by law to do XYZ, you know, you need to implement it. If you disagree, you can contact, us but you have to do it immediately, and you have to do what we say in the interim time.” And so it comes across as very autocratic and for obvious reasons, faculty sort of bristle at it. It doesn’t make for a good working relationship. This, I want to clarify, is for no fault of the CSD. As I say, they’re required to use exactly that type of language. The other issue is that it’s a fairly complex process. When you get notification from the CSD, you get a link which takes you to your instructor’s CSD dashboard, which takes to individual student letters. Which, in the case of students who have a hearing accommodation, will then take you to the center for interpreting, which then has another link in it where you upload materials. And I was, you know, I was just feeling like the the whole system is not set up to make it easier. And knowing that we have faculty who are underprepared and undereducated, and who already are feeling overwhelmed– a lot of them had to pivot to online learning during COVID, and you know, learn a whole bunch of new technology for that purpose. And you know. So there’s all these different things kind of going on at once.
And so I’ve a little bit shifted what I had originally intended to do, which was specifically to develop resources pertinent to the, to the hearing impaired population. To some degree I shifted my approach actually to just providing faculty better education about how to teach. Because a lot of the practices involved are actually just good practices. And instead of saying, “Here’s how to approach or to better teach hearing impaired individuals in your class.” The approach is now “How to be a better instructor by implementing certain practices which will be benefit hearing impaired individuals, but also by the way, will it will benefit a whole lot of other students in the class who benefit from things like captioning and having flexibility, and so forth, having lectures recorded, instead of just simply live in person.” And the technology to do that is there. It’s really not that difficult. And the other thing that we’ve been working on is creating a resource for faculty which is “The Most Commonly Asked Questions about the CSD” and how it works. There’s a lot of confusion about things like well, if the student doesn’t schedule an exam at the CSD by the time limit and they can’t get in because the CSD is full–They’re very you know. They’re very overwhelmed with the number of people they’re serving. What is the Instructor’s responsibility? Is it the Instructor’s responsibility to now get like a proctored space for the student? Or how do they deal with that? How do you deal with situations where students, that have accommodations miss things because of routine, every day, problems that are outside their accommodation? So, for example, the car didn’t start, or they miss class because they overslept, and can they use their accommodations you know, to get around the regular class policies. So just a lot of things like this that professors had some confusion about. And I think, trying to provide a resource to faculty which says we’re not here to tell you what to do. We’re not here to make it harder, or to give you a burden. We’re here to offer you some information about how you can be a better teacher. And if you understand and learn how to do these things– some of it is a little front loaded, you know adopting what’s called a Universal Design in your teaching can take some effort upfront– but it makes it easier down the road because now your classes are already set up to be amenable to a lot of what people are being accommodated for. And so that’s kind of where we stand. I had developed something like a poster, which I’m hoping maybe we can get displayed on departmental websites, maybe in departmental main offices, which basically includes some tips and tricks for how to be a better instructor. Things like captioning videos, if you can, how to do it. Things like not speaking too quickly, when, especially if you have someone who’s got an interpreter or is using live captioning. The importance of getting materials to these individuals ahead of time, so they can be familiar instead of trying you know, out of the blue to interpret some very esoteric, terminology heavy lecture, which I’m sure all of you can appreciate would be really hard to do. Even though there are technically trained ASL interpreters, It’s not really possible to find people who are specialized and interpreters– so in other words, someone who has a Phd inn chemistry and is an interpreter. You know you’ll get someone with some science background who’s gonna have to interpret in chemistry.
And so having this sort of academic pre-preparation by getting lists of terminology, copies of the class slides, access to the HuskyCT website so you can download materials and so forth. All of those are really important for these professionals who are assisting. And the other thing that I worked on has been, the top 10 questions. And so moving forward you know, the year of our fellowship is almost coming to an end, but this is an issue that has actually come before the Faculty Senate repeatedly. Many department heads have approached the Senate and said, “You know there’s a lot of confusion among my faculty about how to handle things and how things work,” and I I’m on the scholastic standards subcommittee for the senate that would be the committee handle a lot of these types of things. And so, even before I got involved with the fellows program, you know, we were hearing concerns from faculty you know, for the past, I’ve been on the Senate for like 6 years I think. And so I proposed that we bump this issue up to the Senate Executive and asked them to actually create a working group whose goal would be, not necessarily to focus specifically on student accessibility per se, Because I think the CSD is doing that great, but to focus on the faculty interactions with CSD, how to get better support for faculty. Maybe get some funding for professional captioning which currently you can only get if you have a student who’s accommodated. Otherwise, you basically have to use like an auto captioning service, which is really bad. Especially if you’re in a science class, and you have to probably 2 to 3 times as long as the lecture itself. Correcting the auto captions, you know, to get accuracy. And so it’s a time commitment. And if we could get professional capital more readily, maybe even just in some STEM classes, or like in some intro STEM classes, where being able to see captions for complex terminology would be really helpful for everyone. Those are all issues that I think could be approached through the Senate and so I’m hoping that the Senate will appoint a working group and that the accessibility fellows, including Kim and Erin, who already spoke with you guys, and Kate and Lynn we would all be able to continue to participate in that. Since we’ve already done kind of all this background work collecting information and making contacts, so that’s kind of kind of where it stands currently. And I’ve really enjoyed both working with the people that I’ve been working with, because they’re all, you know, really interesting, fun people, who care about this issue. And yeah, it’s been one of the more fun things I actually look forward to as a faculty member. You know, instead of like giving exams or whatnot. This has been something really fun to do. So, yeah, so that’s what I’ve been up to.
BRENDA BRUEGGEMANN: Wow, yeah, wow! Holly, thank you. It’s such an honor to meet you on these grounds, and you’ve articulated so much, you’ve kind of covered all of our questions already too! I think we’ll just kind of open up for any follow-up conversation. You know I hardly know where to start, It’s just the oddest thing. And I think–I think what’s happening now, people are beginning, finally, after 30 years with the ADA on university campuses to see that. To see how the structure never worked. So there’s this office– And it’s not CSD’s fault– But there’s this office over there, and the students have to go through the office. It generates a formal letter, and then it comes to the faculty. But there’s no connection between the faculty and the students overwhelmingly, and particularly the faculty piece as you’re articulating, is what’s really missing. But also helping students learn how to be better allies and better advocates for themselves!
HOLLY FITCH: Sure! Yeah. One sticking point has been that for privacy reasons, and for reason it’s involving stigma I’m sure you all are too well aware. Faculty don’t get any information about what students concerns or disabilities are. They really only get information about what the accommodation is. And you know, that makes a 100% sense because of privacy and so forth.
But if we could find a way to improve the relationships between students and faculty, I found that when students come to me of their own volition to explain their situations, and we’re able to talk about it in private, it can really help me be a better teacher. And that’s like a really tricky area, because of the privacy issue, but it’s something I think we should think about “how is there a way to improve that?” Sorry I interrupted, apologies.
BRENDA BRUEGGEMANN: I just gotta say, well, last week I was at Ohio State for the annual Multiple Perspectives on Disability, Access and Inclusion Conference. It’s the 22nd year of the conference. We had a plenary panel with some of us on the plenary panel, who’ve been involved, like, you know. Most of us were just coming into the faculty life, like when the ADA broke out, or we were just finishing up our student career. And so the panel was kind of about what has and hasn’t happened in 30 years. And I will say we had this conversation, –it was kind of striking, I think, to a number of people in the audience – Is that while it’s understandable that there are these protections in place, you know, for our rights and our stigma and our identity. It has come to the place where the protections actually harm you sometimes more than they help you. And we were now beginning to recognize that. I guess I just wanna say too about that– I saw you were working with Karen Skudlarek. And Karen and I had that conversation, too, about projecting that it’s about a 1 million dollars a year that would be needed for captioning. And people act like that’s a huge burden. But that does nothing in this entire university’s budget, and I guess we were still stuck about them thinking about it as just a few, a smattering of individuals who might need that. When 12% of UConn’s population are Chinese students, they would greatly benefit. But see–In the first couple of years here they know the language, but hearing it and accessing, it is a very hard thing. So there’s so –there’s so much that could be done with that.
HOLLY FITCH: And students with ADD would benefit, yeah, one of so– Karen and Lynn and I went and talked to the Provost’s Office recently about this, about this project, and getting funding from them for it. And I–You know they were not receptive to the 1 million dollar budget item, partly because of all the uncertainty about what we’re getting from the State and so forth. But she did say that she thought– This is Gladys Knight, who works in the Provost office– She did say that she thought she could work to get some funding for a subset, so maybe things like the intro classes, particularly in STEM where, if you don’t pass, you can’t go forward in the major.
You know, there’s sort of filter classes, or sometimes called Weed out classes. And I think those are classes where having improved accessibility could have a huge impact. Because there’s a lot of students involved and passing those classes is really important.
BRENDA BRUEGGEMANN: I’ll send you the information after this meeting, the University of South Florida has done some pretty intensive research about the ways in which captioning benefits a wider range of students than just Deafness and its just that kind of thing, particularly for at-risk classes. Yeah. And so, it’s great to talk with them and. See if any of our other team what to like pull on some of the questions or the information.
HOLLY FITCH: Yeah sure!
ASHTEN VASSAR-CAIN: I had a question–just Dr. Fitch, I want to say thank you for like sharing why you’re working on this and continuing to advance access at our University, particularly in STEM.
I know that you mentioned like working with other like faculty in this fellowship position. I just wanted to ask if, like, in these trainings, the language that you use like focuses on like the impairment piece of it. I noticed that a lot of the time when you were describing the work that you did, you were like saying, like hearing impairment. I was just wondering if there was a reason that you we’re choosing not to use the words d/Deaf or Hard of Hearing.
HOLLY FITCH: No, actually, most of my written documentation does refer to d/Deaf and Hard of Hearing. I guess there was a sense on my part that using the word “hearing impairment” has a broader net that even might capture people with CAPD (Central Audio Processing Disorder) or other kinds of processing problems.
But again I’ve made a great effort, and in part this was Audrey’s advice when I had showed her my original draft of my poster, which was focused on how to be a better instructor for d/Deaf and Hard of Hearing students. She basically said, “well, one first of all, it’s not students, because these are practices that apply to things like faculty meetings and talks and Seminar series. Secondly, you don’t always know that you have a student, because a lot of– I won’t say a lot–But they’re certainly based on the numbers of people who have who are Hard of Hearing or d/Deaf versus the numbers of students who register. It’s almost for certain that there are people out there who have issues who are not registered.” So it’s certainly possible to have people in your audience that you don’t even know have a hearing barrier. And so that sort of prompted my decision to refocus the whole thing on “How can you reach people better instead of focusing on their impairments?” And I think that sort of helps move the conversation from what’s wrong with you to what’s wrong with our system, and how can we improve our system to be better for everyone?
And I think that’s I really try to work on you know, recouching my own user terminology. Part of it comes from my academic background, because in publications everything focuses on the deficit, the impairment, the Disability. Because that’s where NIH funding goes NIH (National Institute of Health) funding goes to illnesses you know, problems, gene mutations. You know, NIH doesn’t really fund work for healthy or typically developing individuals for the most part. And so so there’s a tendency to think of things that way when you’re in that research space. But I I agree that an instructor, and from the political perspective, It’s really an important thing to change your perspective, to change that point of view.
ASHTEN VASSAR-CAIN: Thank you so much. I didn’t think of it from like I especially from a STEM and funding standpoint, and that was like a really important clarification and I really appreciated it. I am someone who even registered with the CSD and didn’t know I even benefited from captions until I had a class and there were captions! So, yeah, thank you.
BRENDA BRUEGGEMANN: Holly. Thanks for that line. That’s one I’m gonna frame. It was the line where you said, like “trying to get people to think about what– instead of thinking about what’s wrong with you, What’s wrong with the system that’s not working?” That takes me back to I think the thing I wanna ask about is the document of answering the questions which I think is probably really really valuable. But I have to admit that I went from frustrated to angry reading it myself, because again, once again I thought We’re 33 years past the ADA! You know, a third of a century, and we’re still having to explain this stuff in publication and it’s not that it’s never been explained but it was very frustrating. I wondered about things like how it like delivering it also, and for different multimodal, like little videos which even maybe a student answers the question for faculty –putting student faces.
HOLLY FITCH: Right. So I didn’t mention but one of the things that I did–So there was a former Phd. Student, and I think you might know her Amy Joe Turkana.
No Emily!
Hi, Emily, yeah, I’m still working on a project with her. In fact.
HOLLY FITCH: Yeah. So she had as her Phd. Part of her Phd. Dissertation developed for educational videos. She didn’t have a lot of funding, so she focused on 4 things. I believe it was autism, traumatic brain injury, ADD Maybe, and I forget what the fourth one was. And they’re basically student lead videos for faculty. And the intent was 1. To give faculty a real perspective on the kinds of barriers that students experience. And I think part of the value of that is that I’m I’m sorry to say, but I know for a fact based on talking to some of my colleagues that there’s still a perception that accommodations are meant to “make things easier” and that somehow students are like “gaming the system or gaining an advantage by using them.” And so the purpose of Emily’s videos was to say, take a student who has experienced some of these barriers and say, “here’s what happens to me hen I’m in class, and you do this –you know when you talk too fast, or you keep going for over an hour without a break. Here’s what happens to me, to my thought processing.”
And I think you know, faculty are people, and they’re not bad people. And obviously they have a desire to educate and to benefit students. And so if you could just reach them from the perspective of you know, “you may not realize it, but some of the things you’re doing are hurting people or making it harder for them, and the accommodation is intended just to give them access, to equalize the experience as best as possible.” And then the end of the video was largely her saying, here are tips and tools that you can use to address these concerns to make it better for students who are dealing with these types of issues.
And I thought it was really great because it used the student perspective and the student voice, which I think is so much better than like the kinds of trainings faculty usually have to go through. Which are all like cartoon avatars, made by some administrators and there’s just no– you have no human connection to it. You look at it, and you’re just like “this is a thing I have to do. I gotta check this off my list. This is so annoying. I have other things to do that important.” But if you know, if you’re looking at someone saying, “this is my experience,” you’re not gonna ignore and look away from that. And so I was really impressed with her work. And so we’ve continued to stay in touch with her, and she’s now working on making an open access library of these kinds of educational videosShe’s a great speaker. By the way, I think she would be great in your–to write a blog as well. But it would be a potential resource for UConn to use. And she became aware that the 4 videos she created were each 30 min long and the main feedback she got from her Beta test faculty was that it was “too much, too long” and of course, she was like “really 30 minutes?” But okay, you have to meet people where they are, and if 5 to 10 min video is something that you’re willing to watch, then we’ll make a 5 to 10 min video. And so that’s really what she’s focusing on.
And she’s also trying to create it a la carte, so you can customize it for your class. So, for example, she gave the example under Autism, there would be separate modules for how to manage group projects when you have a student who’s accommodated for Autism. Or how to manage, you know writing or public speaking, where you have presentations, or you know different things like that. And so you could basically customize the little video vignettes that you watch to your particular class. And I think that would be just so beneficial.
And I told her we would do whatever we can to help her, including. I will rally up beta testers for her if she needs that.
BRENDA BRUEGGEMANN: Right? Yeah, I put that down in the chat.
HOLLY FITCH: I just wanna let you guys know that I do have to leave at 2:15 because I have prep some materials for exam.
BRENDA BRUEGGEMANN: I was just going to say that we’re about up. I was just gonna say that we’re about up to 45 min, and you have really given us a lot of rich material. And usually what we do is we create a kind of informational write up about our talk with you about your project, and then I’m not saying it will happen, but so far we’ve all found that one of us wanted to write our own like response. So there’s a more formal, informational thing, and we put the transcript up the full transcript of the conversation.
HOLLY FITCH: Sure sounds great.
BRENDA BRUEGGEMANN: And but you get to see it before we do this, and we often have one of us will right a little piece, sort of our own response. Thank you so much for taking the time.
HOLLY FITCH: Excellent. Yeah, been such a pleasure. And I’m just so glad to know that there’s a group of people working on this issue and moving forward. It’s really been heartwarming to see how many people at UConn are engaged in this effort.
BRENDA BRUEGGEMANN: Yeah, yeah, certainly has been very affirming for me too, just very lucky to see it happen. Okay, thank you. A lot.
HOLLY FITCH: Alright. Well, thank you so much for inviting me.
BRENDA BRUEGGEMANN: Oh! We continue to meet ourselves until 3 every Monday.
HOLLY FITCH: Best to you all! Bye!
ALLY CARBUTTI: Thank you!
Disability & Access Collective 